Combat Recovery from MarineParents.com: A Place to Connect & Share(tm)

The following is a transcript of the "Chat with Dr. Cantrell" from December 16, 2009. Links to additional resources and information from the chat transcript are included to the right.

Dr. Cantrell:
Does anyone have a question

oldsheepdog:
I am not used to this format. This is the first time I have been in an internet "chat room". I got the e-mail this morning. I have a son whom recently reterned from active duty in Iraq. As I thought about it today I realized that why I want to do thios is that I am feeling that I am very unsure about how to help my son, because, well because I have been diagnosed by a Psycholgist who served in Vietnam, that I have some PTSD myself from 1968.

Dr. Cantrell:
This is an email you got about your son and then you yourself has PTSD is this correct?

oldsheepdog:
Yes.

Dr. Cantrell:
First of all you are probably better equipped to really understand the challenges he may have when he comes home. So this is a positive and this gives you more credibility in his eyes to hear his stories.

Dr. Cantrell:
The next point is that you must also assess if you are wanting to hear his

Dr. Cantrell:
stories and if so, how much do you want to know. This can trigger you as well.

Dr. Cantrell:
I would start the dialogue before he gets home in terms of what he expects when he gets home.

Dr. Cantrell:
The gift that you have to give your son is your own experience and knowing deep inside how he will more than likely be affected. You will also be able to see the subtle changes in his behaviors as signals that something is not quite as it appears. You have earned the right to speak into your son's life by your combat experiences.

Mom Soz:
Dr. Cantrell, while we're waiting, I have a question. I have had several people asking if it is true that

Mom Soz:
people who are not deployed

oldsheepdog:
My primary concern is that what I am doing is helping him. I am worried that what I do might be harmful rather than helpful. Understand that I was in denial for many years. Throughout his child hood I Did not speak about my own experiences at all. When He was in his early teens I was in an accident an was givin some form of morpinme while I was in a hospital. After reterning home, I few days later on a Sat morning he brought me a book to read to him. While reading the book I became angry. I star

Dr. Cantrell:
You say you started?

Dr. Cantrell:
Go ahead Mom_soz

Mom Soz:
can suffer from PTSD through their Marine being deployed?

Mom Soz:
they are wondering because they have what they consider to be unusual reactions to things after deployments are over

Dr. Cantrell:
Family members are often affected by transgenerational trauma. By experiencing some issues during these deployments of not knowing if the knock on the door comes in the middle of the night, or a phone call comes in with some news that may not be good. You are all on pins and needles, and the anxiety can certainly affect ones ability to feel at ease. So the answer is it may not necessarily be PTSD, and this must be determined looking at many other factors, but you can certainly be affected wit

Dr. Cantrell:
Where did my message cut off

Mom Soz:
but you can certainly be afffected wit

Dr. Cantrell:
with simlilar behaviors as your Marine: loss of sleep, jumpiness, irritability, social isolation, emotional withdrawal.

Dr. Cantrell:
Old Sheep Dog, it sounds like you are worried about how you will react. When you got angry how did you respond to your son?

Mom Soz:
these are some of the behaviors they share. Thank you

Dr. Cantrell:
Yes, but the origin is certainly different, and the degree to which they are affected varies

Mom Soz:
yes, I understand

Mom Soz:
dad... did you have a question for Dr. Cantrell?

Dr. Cantrell:
Not speaking about your experiences was pretty normal for the Vietnam Veterans. You mostly went underground with your emotional pain and did not feel that it was safe to talk about your experiences.

oldsheepdog:
I said to him in a voice tone, intonation that was inbetween calm and upset that I did not know how I knew that the book he was reading was incorrect that it was incorrect. Since I got a message that the moderator had "trucinated " my mesasage for being to long. I do not know how much of my typing you recieved.

Dr. Cantrell:
I just got the point where you said you got angry and you stay......

Mom Soz:
oldsheepdog... that happens automatically when your message is too long for the system... sorry

oldsheepdog:
Please give me some guidence. Is anything more than say one sentence too long?

Mom Soz:
You can go 2 or 3 sentences, usually

Mom Soz:
if you type a bit, hit return then keep typing, that should be good

oldsheepdog:
Not sure how to deal with this limitaion. Give me a minute to think about how to deal with this.

Mom Soz:
Hi cjv... did you have a question for Dr. Cantrell tonight?

oldsheepdog:
OK. My point is that because of my own denial I had not talked with my son about my experiences before the incidnt where the helicopter flew over our home and I ran outside and hid under a tree.

cjv:
I just was wondering if you were going to see a real struggle with PTSD how long after being home would I most likely see it?

Dr. Cantrell:
I bet your son will be able to have a better understanding of your reactions. Chances are you may both run outside and go for the same tree. You don't have to talk to him about these issues. There is no right or wrong, and you will work out what works best for both of you.

Mom Soz:
cjv... I'm not an expert but, from experiences I have seen, it can be anywhere from immediate to much longer, sometimes years

Dr. Cantrell:
I hope that you are able to get help for yourself as well. PTSD is real and it can certainly be debilitating. Perhaps having your son in the Marines will give you more of a reason to explore your own triggers etc.

Dr. Cantrell:
He is lucky to have you as his father, a veteran who clearly has an understanding of the effects of combat trauma

Dr. Cantrell:
The struggle of PTSD varies for each person. I had VN veterans who were doing Ok until 9/11 and then they unraveled.

Dr. Cantrell:
It is not uncommon for them to initially come home and do there best to pull it together, and then about 3 of 4 months later after they start realizing they are not getting back into the saddle as quickly as they had anticipated, they start getting frustrated and they may see their stress level elevate at that point

Mom Soz:
I have talked to VN veterans who have said the same thing. Some did not realize they had PTSD issues and things were triggered with the event s of 9/11 and other situations since

cjv:
Do you think the VN Vets had/have a harder time because we did not show appreciation or understaning of what they had been through or did for our country and maybe our kids might have it a little better this way?

Dr. Cantrell:
Also anniversaries of events that went on Down Range can certainly trigger them and this can also be a point at which they begin to have more nightmares, anger, etc.

Dr. Cantrell:
Yes, our kids most certainly have it better this way, but it does not take away the fact that they are affected by their war zone experiences. We must never repeat that part of history how our society were so disrespectful to our poor VN veterans, they had no home to return to.

Dr. Cantrell:
The homecoming is only one component of the process. The better their social support, the better landing they may have, but each person is different and they all have different levels of resiliency and different experiences in the combat zone.

oldsheepdog:
A) Thank you for telling me that I am far from the olny one. B) Yes, it has been pointed out to me that every year in Jan. as the "anniversery" of Tet 68 approaches that I withdraw and ... and get up tight.

Dr. Cantrell:
Yes, this is a perfect example of how these anniversaries can really set you all on end. I have many of my VN vets who are sharing your anniversary and this is a particular difficult time of year.

cjv:
Well oldsheepdog I want to thank you for your service and all that you have done for our country.

Dr. Cantrell:
You and your son Old Sheep Dog have some great opportunities to really join together on a common level, where it was not there prior to his deployment. This is a very powerful connection

Dr. Cantrell:
Yes, Indeed Old Sheep Dog, I truly honor you and your service. I know from working with thousands of VN veterans that your homecoming was disgraceful and I hope you know now after all these decades that we are grateful for your service to our country.

oldsheepdog:
Thank you. I remember how in 68 we were told to NOT ... to not talk.

Dr. Cantrell:
When does your son get home Old Sheep Dog? Yes, this used to be the way to keep it quiet, and some of your operations were classified as many are now. People just didn't know how to recieve the information I guess. But we know that it is never too late to talk and tell your stories, this is an important part of the journey home!

cjv:
I just think that the lack of homecoming is a relfection on the poor and disrespectful behavior of our society and something that we should forever be ashamed of and infact we should and are forever appreciative of what you and so many others gave for us

oldsheepdog:
I feel so . . . ashamed. I was raised in a family . .. where I was told how my ancenstored had fought in the Revoulutionary war, in the War Between the States, that "their bold runs in your vains" and now I feel like, some times I feel like just walking away into the woods and . . ;. crying. I feel so . .. inadiqute.

oldsheepdog:
I do not want to be a damnd cry baby. I want to help my son.

Dr. Cantrell:
Old Sheep Dog, this is not unusual. It is in your DNA to be a warrior, and you carried out your obligation but it was when you got home that you realized that you were not supported. The most important thing you can do to support your son is be open to listening and hearing. Also just being there and being available to be there physically for him.

Mom Soz:
also, oldsheepdog, as has been explained to me quite frequently...

Mom Soz:
crying is part of the release and healing

Dr. Cantrell:
You are seeing yourself in your son, and you know that there can be struggle ahead of him. This is where some of the grief comes into play as well.

spidey:
sheepdog has your son just come home from a deployment

oldsheepdog:
Do understand that my son has chosen to go to his mothers home rather than mine. She lives in an area, two thousand miles away, a small city, rather than the very rural area I live in that has potential jobs, colleges. I aplaude that he will be ther for his Mom. But we will not be seeing each other face to face much.

oldsheepdog:
Yes he has just come home from his fourth deployment to Iraq.

Dr. Cantrell:
It takes time and he must go where he feels comfortable. This does not mean that he won't eventually come to be more connected with you.

oldsheepdog:
I understand and acept that. I feel incredably honored to have an adult son, a Marine who calls and writes to his Dad things like: "I love you" "I miss you." Agine, my primary concern is tha t what ever I do is helping him.

Dr. Cantrell:
WoW now it doesn't get much better than that!! You just be there for him unconditionally. Tell him that if he ever needs to talk you are right there for him. Take him out and go do something Dad and Son related. Give him an outlet with you. This sounds pretty good to me.

oldsheepdog:
Another point for you too better undersant my presnet situation. The psycholgist wh helped me come to where I can actually types thse words has liver cancer, angent orage, etc. so he is in no condition to talk to me.

Dr. Cantrell:
It sounds like u have a strong connection eventhough you had some difficulties many years ago with connecting.

oldsheepdog:
I am going to visit him tomorrow with a mutual friend. Possibly the last time we will ever see each other togeather here on this plan.

Dr. Cantrell:
I am so sorry. Have you been referred to another person so you can continue with your healing?

cjv:
I'm going to get going, thank you Dr. Cantrell. Take care

Dr. Cantrell:
take care cjv

oldsheepdog:
Yes my son and my friend/counselor Ric hav some strong connections.

Dr. Cantrell:
So you are visiting Ric with a mutual friend. is he in the hospital or on hospice

Mom Soz:
Dr. Cantrell, this is question that I have been asked to pass along... my son has just returned from his second deployment. Each one seems to ad another layer of protective coating around him. After we returned from homecoming he sent me an email that said F---- off and leave me alone. I have not had contact with him since then. Should I just wait until he is ready to contact me?

oldsheepdog:
The other counselors I have been refered to either I feel that they do not have . . . the ability to understand/connect, it seems because I only "conect" to people who have had . . some experince. Combat? Close to mine.

oldsheepdog:
Ric has been in and out of a VA hospital, tomorrow he is going to be at his home.

Dr. Cantrell:
This is a difficuilt question. It really depends on the the issues that you have had historically. It is not surprising that the protective coating gets a bit more heavy with each deployment. This could be a sign that he is just angry at the world and the loved one he directed this toward is a safe bet in terms of not turning their back.

Mom Soz:
oldsheepdog...I hope you have a good visit with him tomorrow

oldsheepdog:
I have been with him to the VA hospital. Seems like he is not getting the best care.

Dr. Cantrell:
On the other hand it may mean that he is pushing those he loves away because he doesn't know how else to deal with the pain. I would most certainly have someone check on him. Call his battle buddy or the chaplain and see whats up.

Mom Soz:
thank you Dr. Cantrell. I will pass that information along

Dr. Cantrell:
Just remember that someone does not have to have combat experience to be helpful. I know that I have many VN veteran clients who felt this way as well, but they gave me a chance. So please don't shut those out that are not prior military, they may have the magic you need to feel worthy of receiving the help you deserve..

oldsheepdog:
Should tell you that I recently bought booth of your books. However, I have not read them yet. When I start, it is . . . painful.

spidey:
To[Private] Mom_Soz I am hoping that members of his squadron will notice and get him help if he needs it. One week before they were due to return home 4 of his friends, pilots, were killed ina crash. He had to take care of the bodies. I am sure this has him very upset. I don't want to do the wrong thing and push him completely away.

Dr. Cantrell:
It's ok Old Sheep Dog, they are written so you can stop at anytime (this is good self care) and pick it up when you feel ready. Just remember they are written to help normalize what you go through which transcends age and era of service, you all share a common thread of transformation.

oldsheepdog:
I have not "shut them out". The few I tried, there just was not . . what I needed. Set a second appointment today, for Dec 29th, with acounselor form the local hospice that I want to see agine.

Mom Soz:
Dr. Cantrell, our anonymous person now writes: I am hoping that members of his squadron will notice and get him help if he needs it. One week before they were due to return home 4 of his friends, pilots, were killed ina crash. He had to take care of the bodies. I am sure this has him very upset. I don't want to do the wrong thing and push him completely away.

Dr. Cantrell:
This is good, it is the relationship that is the most important aspect of a therapist. If you don't feel like they get you then keep looking until you feel that connection.

oldsheepdog:
OK.

Dr. Cantrell:
This is really very rough and especially if he knows them personally and had to take of them. This is very traumatic and haunting to say the least. His anger is a way of pushing away and covering up the tremendous deep grief he feels. He is probably afraid to cry because he probably thinks he will never stop. I would NOT take a passive stance on this. I would call one of his squadron and take action. This is not good!!

spidey:
Who would you recommend that I call?

Dr. Cantrell:
one of his buddies would be a good start, you can also talk to the Chaplain of the unit.

spidey:
Dr. Cantrell, don't members of a squadron look out for sign of P

spidey:
TSd and take care of one another

oldsheepdog:
Spidey. Call his Chaplin. The Chaplin can do things that are a bit outside the normal. Call his Chaplin.

spidey:
He is so angry, if he found out I have done something he may never contact me again

Dr. Cantrell:
Yes of course, but sometimes it is like looking in a mirror and if they see it in their buddy they see it in themselves, but the denial and the pride as well as the stigmas get in the way. DO NOT wait and take a chance. Call his Chaplain and get some advise. they have 100% confidentiality

spidey:
good to know that

Dr. Cantrell:
The risk is not doing anything and living with a negative outcome!

spidey:
he is already a person that I do not know

oldsheepdog:
I agreewith what Dr. Cantrell typed. Do not just sit back on this. Even if right now he is upset with you, in time he will thank you for being active in helping him.

Dr. Cantrell:
This may be your only chance. Old Sheep Dog is right. He may be mad now, but you can live with this, but it is the long range we must always look at. Time heals wounds like this, but this is serious!

spidey:
I do realize that this is serious. I have been waiting for you to visit chat. Can you recommend one of your books that I should start with

ltsmom:
If I may, when a chaplian is approached and the outcome is not favorable, what is the next step?

spidey:
good question

Dr. Cantrell:
Start with Down Range to Iraq and Back first, it has the basics, and then the other two Once a Warrior Wired for Life and Souls Under Siege: The Effects of Multiple Troop Deployment and How to Weather the Storm.

spidey:
thank you

Dr. Cantrell:
It all depends, I hate to be blunt here, but you need to look at this situation as need immediate intervention.

spidey:
i was concerned about the second deployment as he was only back in the states for 16 weeks, and the next one was really rough

spidey:
i am very frightened

Dr. Cantrell:
Yes, they are all different, and it sounds like this one was really rough

oldsheepdog:
Go to his immediate CO. Many of them are very good at getting help for "Their men (and woman)" Go to the chaplin first and right away. They have assets, recourses that are simply not avilable as easaly to anyone else.

Dr. Cantrell:
Do you have any Marines or veterans in your midst that you can call upon

spidey:
my husband happens to be a veteran

oldsheepdog:
Yes.

spidey:
his answer is that in time he will be fine

spidey:
oh course he is a marine

Dr. Cantrell:
Will he talk with your husband, if he were to go by himself and just spend some time with him

Dr. Cantrell:
Then your husband is using his experience to determine the outcome of your son, sometimes this works and sometimes not so well

spidey:
actually amazing grace of marine parents and the good vibes he has just called and is talking on the phone with his dad at this very moment

Dr. Cantrell:
WOW wonderful, this is great, just take it slow but keep your eyes open, and don't be passive

Mom Soz:
that's wonderful spidey!!

spidey:
at this moment i am blinded by the tears

ltsmom:
To[Private] spidey i was hoping you could be here tonite

Dr. Cantrell:
I can just imagine, this is perfect. Blessings come in all forms :)

spidey:
you must have incredible powers dr. cantrell

Dr. Cantrell:
Now you have me writing behind tears. I know how you all worry and hurt. They are all your children and you want to be good stewards without pushing them away and sometimes it is a tight rope we walk.

Mom Soz:
Just to let everyone know - Our Chat will end for the evening in approximately 20 minutes

granny_1:
My grandson just came home from Afghanistan for west coast reunion. He has changed alot. Reserved, quiet. We took him out for breakfast. Just easy conversation. Suddenly he said he saw something BAD while deployed. He told my husband (grandpa), he was at an observation out post., tracking "bad guys", looking thru field glasses and saw 2 Helicoptor hit each other. Then they went to the sight to provide protection. He has not told other family about this. Is this why he is so quiet?

granny_1:
I hope I did this OK

spidey:
yes it is. but for the first time since homecoming i feel some relief.

spidey:
granny that would be the helicopters that were with my son

spidey:
out of his group there were 6 pilots, 4 died that day

granny_1:
yes

granny_1:
one of the injured is from my area

Dr. Cantrell:
You have the connection a shared experience. Yes, this is why he is so quiet in addition to other things that are so difficult he has to shut down emotionally just to cope

spidey:
they were all my son's tent buddies. they had been together at an FBO for sometime, so they were all close

Mom Soz:
granny... it is normal for them to not want to talk with everyone about things like this when they come home, the fact that he told his grandpa is huge!!

Mom Soz:
at least in my experience

spidey:
my son can not talk about it yet, but i would expect that from him

spidey:
granny it was an awful crash

Dr. Cantrell:
Yes, since he told his grandpa this is very good. They don't want to talk and are concerned that people will ask them questions. Now it is grandpa who has eraned the right to speak to him and he will probably talk to him, but don't expect him to talk about this to others.

granny_1:
He told me also at the same time

Dr. Cantrell:
These kinds of events do not have words to describe them, and it is best just to let them unfold as they will.

Dr. Cantrell:
You both must have a very strong relationship with him, and he feels safe with you both.

spidey:
dr. cantrell do members they are with tend to talk to each other

granny_1:
He is going back to Camp L on Friday. Should I keep in close contact with him? I have always had a close relationship with him

Dr. Cantrell:
sometimes, and sometimes all they say is "@##*@*#()! that was bad" depends on the time they have.

Dr. Cantrell:
Of course, don't change the relationship you have with him. Load him up with all sorts of love and send him reminders from home that he is in your heart.

granny_1:
I do have lots of love for him. He and his Marine brother are my special treat in life.

Dr. Cantrell:
He knows this as well. Having Granny make cookies or whatever, would go a long way to remind him of your love

Mom Soz:
that it would :)

oldsheepdog:
I am not a professional Psychologist, that said. Listen a Lot. Talk little. It is wonderful that he feels able to talk to you as much as you have described. Let everything you say to him be gentle, non-judgemental, kind.

granny_1:
I am the "cookie" granny

Mom Soz:
that sounds like excellent advice oldsheepdog, thank you

Dr. Cantrell:
Absolutely, this is why we have two ears (more listening) and one mouth,(less talk).

Dr. Cantrell:
Yes, once they feel we pass judgment we will lose them. They need unconditional love. Many of them have survival guilt and feel that they are not worthy of being loved and shouldn't be here. So the more we just are there for them the more safe they feel.

spidey:
What do you mean by pass judgement? If he did talk I would listen and talk from the heart. Are all commens passing judgement?

spidey:
can they get out of survival guilt by themselves?

spidey:
I am so confused, I am afraid to do anything

oldsheepdog:
Yes! Let every single word be suportive. I can not convay to you how powerful, how important it is for you to always be positive, always be open, always be kind.

Dr. Cantrell:
No not at all. Some people may say things innocently that leave them feeling judged. Like "you are kidding", "how could you have done that?", "I can't believe you thought that", these are just a few of comments we say that cast doubt.

spidey:
good to be brought to my attention. I will be buying the books tomorrow.

Dr. Cantrell:
No don't be afraid, just know that you need to learn as much as possible about the issues they bring home.

Dr. Cantrell:
Sometimes the words we say are misinterpretted because of how the person getting the message percieves them.

granny_1:
He told me this past Friday, and I have been waiting for tonight. Should I talk to my daughter about this?

spidey:
so true

Dr. Cantrell:
Why not let him tell her, if he chooes to do so.

granny_1:
ok

Dr. Cantrell:
He may be confiding in you and wants to keep things between the two of you. Let him decide who he will share these stories with. At least he is close to you and you don't want to betray him

granny_1:
ok

Mom Soz:
granny... my son couldn't tell me things at first... he talked to his brother & asked him to not say anything, that he would when he was ready

Mom Soz:
he has since talked to me about some of them

Dr. Cantrell:
Timing is everything, and some things are shared and not expected to be shared. These stories are very sacred

Mom Soz:
yes they are

Mom Soz:
he was very honest with me when he finally told me, he said he wasn't telling me everything

Dr. Cantrell:
It is a priviledge to be invited in by him

Mom Soz:
yes it is

granny_1:
I am on the west coast and he is East Coast. I will stay in touch often

Dr. Cantrell:
Of course and he won't tell many things to anyone.

Mom Soz:
exactly

Dr. Cantrell:
Yes, do keep in touch often he probably counts on that!

granny_1:
thank you so much for your help

spidey:
Dr. Cantrell, thank you for chatting with me tonight. You have given more things to think about

Dr. Cantrell:
It is my pleasure to be here

spidey:
My chat buddies again thanks for the support. Could not do it with out you

Mom Soz:
anytime spidey (((((HUGS))))))

ltsmom:
elle and oldsheepdog, My prayers are always for you and for your comfort

spidey:
thanks blessings

ltsmom:
you too granny,

Dr. Cantrell:
Please don't close until Old Sheep Dog gets finished here

oldsheepdog:
It is an HONOR to be invited by him to talk. When I got back in 68 my father was critical, nasty. I did not tlak to anyone else until 1996. It is WONDERFUL that he is talking with you.

Mom Soz:
absolutely Dr Cantrell

spidey:
night oldsheepdog hope all goes well

oldsheepdog:
Thank you all. This has helped

granny_1:
thank you. thank you all

Dr. Cantrell:
Yes, it is very special that he is talking. Old Sheep Dog thank you for your postings tonight. and bless you All. See you next month

Mom Soz:
oldsheepdog.... I'm really glad you came in tonight

Mom Soz:
thank you for sharing with us tonight

Dr. Cantrell:
Good night, and see you next month oops in the New Year 2010

granny_1:
I'll be back

Mom Soz:
good night Dr Cantrell.... Merry Christmas!!

Dr. Cantrell:
Merry Christmas@@

ltsmom:
thank you for your insights and work dr cantrell